mlhunter notes on  the Savage 10ML II rifle.  January 2nd, 2002, I bought a new Savage 10ML II rifle from my distributor and I am documenting my "discoveries" from reading the owner's manual to taking the rifle on a "walking" varmint hunt. 

• Reading the Owner's Manual
• Inspecting the Rifle - External - First Impressions
• Inspecting the Rifle - internal  - Analyzing the "guts" and accurizing possibilities
• Getting the Rifle Ready to Shoot
• Scoping the Rifle
• Load Development
• Shooting the Rifle
• Shooting the Rifle Conclusions
• Hunting with the Rifle
• Other Articles on the Savage 10 ML II

Reading the Owner's Manual
 Some mlhunter observations from the manual.

• The Owner's manual is well organized.  As is should, it contains the 10 commandments of firearms safety and the 10 commandments of muzzleloading.
• Lots of "paraphernalia" associated with the rifle - primer modules to keep track of, vent liners that need to be replaced every so many shots.  I haven't seen any replacements I can order from my distributor.  Seems that the easier cleaning that you initially gain is wiped out with all the "stuff" that has to be kept track of and dealt with. It does appear that the "stuff" doesn't have to be an issue at the range except for extended shooting sessions with black powder.  To be reliable this rifle will require the shooter to keep track of the number of shots fired between cleanings of the bore and the vent liner.  
• Rifle seems ideal for shooting higher pressure FFFg black powder or Pyrodex P yet there is no specific mention of these powders in the manual and they are not included in the recommended powders.  Not a show stopper but I'll try to get some information on this from Savage.
• The owner's manual has specific smokeless powder loads and recommends FFG or equivalent powder if black powder is used.  It repeatedly warns to use those specific loads only and only in their rifle.

mlhunter.conclusion:  The owner's manual is decent with suggested loads for three smokeless powders and FFg powders or replicas.  I'd like to see some load data for FFFg or Pyrdodex P loads as this rifle certainly could handle the somewhat higher pressures and they would work better with the shorter effective barrel length.  I also would like to have instructions for disassembling and re-assembling the bolt as I've had to clean the grease out of some bolts so they would function correctly in extremely cold weather. After my shooting evaluation, I'll figure that part out. 

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Inspecting the Rifle - External - First Impressions

These are the mlhunter "discoveries" from my initial external inspection of the rifle.

• The blue finish is a non-reflective satin blue and the synthetic stock appears to be good quality, not a plastic "Mattel" sound to it.  The barrel is free floated, I could slide a business card all the way to the end of the barrel channel.
• Sights are high as they should be.  Front is a one screw ramp with a black bead dovetailed went into it.  The rear is a sliding ramp style adjustable sight with a "U" notch in a "buckhorn" shaped sight blade.  The sights are non-metallic.
• Surprise -- Savage advertises this model with a 24" barrel but when I dropped a universal rod went into the barrel it measured only 22" of useable barrel length.  The barrel has a recessed muzzle approximately 1" deep which due to quicker gas loss  also reduces the effective length  a bit more yet.  The shooter ends up with approximately a 21" effective length barrel!  This is not a significant issue with the smokeless powders recommended by Savage but it makes Savage's published black powder low  velocities understandable. 
• The trigger breaks consistently at 6 to 6.25# with a bit of creep before it breaks fairly cleanly.  According to the owner's manual the trigger is adjustable for pull weight.  This "litigation" trigger is far better than the first rifle I tested but heavier than any reasonable hunter would want to deal with.  There is a cocking indicator that lets the shooter know with a red dot if the firing mechanism is ready to fire. 
• Scope mounting screw holes were not plugged.
• To avoid lifting the cheek off the stock the scope will have to be mounted as low as possible or a comb raising aid such as the Bear tooth will be needed.  Even though it is called a "short" action there is a lot of length between the scope base mounting screws.  This rifle will be a challenge to scope properly. 
• The safety is mounted on the tang and is a three position safety.  The three position safety is favored by many experienced hunters.  However, it could be a bit difficult to operate with heavy gloves on.
• An Allen wrench is required to remove the bolt from the action.
• The ramrod is fiber with brass ends, one end has a cleaning jag/bullet seater on it and the other end is brass. Both are threaded with the standard 10-32 black powder threads.  I would prefer an aluminum ramrod with a Barnes bullet starter.  The ramrod is a straight 3/8" diameter so an aluminum replacement rod with the Barnes bullet starter could be easily substituted.    

mlhunter.conclusion:  Overall I think the rifle is a good looking rifle. I'm ok with the muzzle heavy feel of the rifle for most stand hunting.  I would not want to carry this rifle with a heavy scope on it all day in the Rocky mountains for mule deer or elk.  I thought that omitting the scope base filler screws was tacky, not everyone puts a scope on their rifle.  I also wonder if the fiberglass ramrod will hold up to that  2nd and 3rd re-load without field cleaning when using black powder as that can require a lot of bullet seating pressure.

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Inspecting the Rifle - internal 

Here's what I found when I removed the barreled action from the stock.

• Two screws - an action screw and the front trigger screw attach the stock to the barreled action.  The stock screws are pillar bedded with metal inserts in the stock.  The rear stock to action (front trigger guard screw) screw also holds the bolt in and must be loosened to remove the bolt. This is a bit disturbing from a bedding perspective but with the pillar bedding and the same tightening sequence each time that shouldn't be a negative accuracy factor.
• The standard Savage recoil lug protrudes from between the action and the barrel nut.  This mates with a recoil "tower" molded went into the stock.  
• The trigger has some  adjustment but I was only able to adjust the trigger where it broke between 4.5# and 5# with a slight bit of creep.  Not ideal but in today's litigious society its a trigger that can be lived with some shooting practice.

mlhunter.conclusion:  The rifle has good accuracy enhancing features but I would prefer a different method of bolt removal than loosening the rear bedding screw.   Further accurizing potential is excellent.  Glass bedding and an aftermarket trigger tuned to a 3# pull would give this rifle maximum mechanical accuracy.

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Getting the Rifle Ready to Shoot

Here's what it takes to get the rifle ready to shoot.

• The first model of the Savage 10ML required insertion of a 209 module.  The Savage 110ML II does away with the 209 module thus does not require this procedure.  The breech plug is deep enough in the action that there should be no problem with water preventing the primer from firing.
• Winchester and CC I 209 shotgun primers the only recommended primers. 10 Winchester primers were fired in the rifle to ensure positive ignition.  The were easy to insert but I found it difficult to extract several of the primers having to resort to some time of tool to pry the primer up out of  its place. This makes a slow reload.  
• The breech plug, vent liner, and barrel need to be cleaned prior to shooting the rifle.  The breech plug and vent liner  threads will need to be lubricated with anti-seize lubricant.
• The rifle does have a removable vent liner that needs to be replaced every 100 shots of smokeless powder or every 50 shots or less of black powder or replicas. NOTE:  The owners manual explicitly says that failure to do this could result in the inability to remove it with a hex wrench.

mlhunter.conclusion:  This appears to be a pretty good system and it should be quite weatherproof.  I don't like the idea of having to pry the spent 209 primers out of their place.  Also, replacing the vent liner periodically requires the shooter to keep track of the number of shots fired.  I keep all my targets in a 3 ring binder for each muzzleloader so its not a problem for me but most shooters don't do that.

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Scoping the Rifle

As I expected, the longish action will make maintaining correct eye height and eye relief difficult.

• Standard scope bases and low ring mounts work best with low power scopes with a 1" (20mm)  objective as the open sights could be used in an emergency.  An extended length scope with 4" or greater eye relief might work but the rear sight would likely need to be removed.   Standard 2x7x32 or 3x9x40 scopes do not have enough 1" tube length for mounting this way.  I were able to mount a non-adjustable Nikon 4x40 scope on the rifle and I could use it that  way but eye relief was not enough to make it work well.    
• Using an extended scope base on the front base or a low extended scope ring allows most 3x9x40 scopes or smaller to be mounted and eye relief seems to be ok.  Open sights could still be used in an emergency.  
• 44mm objective scopes with bell covers and 50mm objective scopes will require medium or high mount rings which will bring the cheek up off the stock comb.  The comb can be raised with the Bear tooth comb raising kit to compensate but, unless you already have the scope, best to avoid these large and heavy  scopes. 

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Load Development

Inspection over, its time to get down to business and find out how the rifle will shoot.

• Forcing  an lightly oiled 54 caliber (.520") lead ball through a lightly oiled bore yielded a bore diameter of .507",  typical of many inline muzzleloader bores.  Some roughness was detected in the bore so there would likely be significant fouling with attendant reloading difficulty if shooting black powder.  However, that won't be an issue with most shooters since most won't shoot black powder in this rifle anyway.  The bore size does tell us that this rifle should  load copper bullets without too much trouble and shoot them well.
• I
• The manual specifies using IMR 4227, AA XMP5744, or VV N110 for smokeless powder loads.  With some research it was determined that AA XMP5744 has a very linear pressure curve, is position insensitive, is extremely versatile and would be my first choice.  IMR 4227 would be my second choice as its been around a long time and it readily available just about anywhere.  I  couldn't find out much about VV N110 and the information I do have seemed to indicate its a good powder but it didn't seem to have any better characteristics than other similar powders.  The first round of  tests will be done with AA XMP5744 and a second round with IMR 4227. 
• Gun writers tend to test muzzleloaders using three shot groups.  To provide comparability, the testing will be done shooting three shot groups at 100 meters (109yds) with the Nikon 2x7x32 scope set on seven power.  If accuracy for a particular load is particularly bad  that test will be abandoned.  If the rifle's bore becomes excessively fouled with one test, the rifle will be cleaned, a fouling shot fired, and testing resumed.   
• Since there was not a lot of difference in velocities between lowest and  highest powder charges, I planned to use all recommended powder charge rates.  Bullets specified in the owner's manual include .452" Hornady 250gr and 300gr XTP bullets in MMP sabots.   The first round of tests will include the Hornady 300 HP/XTP Mag bullet as it should be better suited for the fast twist rate and I will use Hornady Hi Vel sabots instead of MMP sabots as I have found them to work better with longer bullets in magnum loads.  This will be  Test #1.  Test #2 will be the Barnes 300gr bullets that shoot so well in numerous rifles.   The rifle will then be cleaned, the vent liner replaced and additional bullets tested if necessary.  Other combinations will be shot as time permits.   

mlhunter.conclusion:  Testing results will be recorded here when completed.  Accuracy may be enhanced and re-loading would be easier by lapping out the roughness in the barrel.  The recessed muzzle of the barrel would make us want to fire lap or "tight patch and elbow grease" lap the barrel as the "gunsmith" method using poured lead would be difficult to do.  

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Scoping the Rifle

As I expected, the longish action made maintaining correct eye height and eye relief difficult.

• Standard scope bases and low ring mounts work best with low power scopes with a 1" (20mm)  objective as the open sights could be used in an emergency.  An extended length scope with 4" or greater eye relief might work but the rear sight would likely need to be removed.   Standard 2x7x32 or 3x9x40 scopes do not have enough 1" tube length for mounting this way.  I was able to mount a non-adjustable Nikon 4x40 scope on the rifle and I could use it that  way but eye relief was not enough to make it work well.    
• Using an extended scope base on the front base or a low extended scope ring allows most 3x9x40 scopes or smaller to be mounted and eye relief seems to be ok.  However, the 40mm objective may not allow use of a scope cover, see conclusion below  Open sights could still be used in an emergency.  
• Most 40 mm, 44mm and 50mm objective scopes will require medium or high mount rings which will bring the cheek up off the stock comb.  The comb can be raised with the Bear tooth comb raising kit to compensate but, unless you already have the scope, best to avoid these large, heavy, and expensive scopes.

mlhunter.conclusion:  By using a Weaver extended front base mounted back toward the shooter and standard Weaver low mount rings I was able to mount a Nikon 3x9x40 UCC Monarch scope with proper eye relief and mounted as low as possible for best possible cheek weld. However, the scope objective was too  close to the barrel to use any kind of scope cover.  The scope I chose to mount permanently was a Nikon 2x7x32 UCC Monarch scope which worked out very nicely.   By removing the scope the open sights could be used in an emergency.  I would prefer less drop for the stock comb as a firm cheek weld places the eye very low on the scope eye piece.  To get the eye height correct  I added a black BlackHawk Industries Tactical  Height Adjustable Cheek  Pad with one pad and the rifle is ready for serious shooting and hunting.

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Shooting the Rifle

Shooting Test #1

April 5, 2002.  Finally I have a day suitable for shooting with little wind!  Components and load data was selected from the list provided by Savage in the owner manual and I further selected what I believed the best components to be for this rifle, .Accurate Arms' XMP 5744, Hornady 300 HP/XTP Mag, and Hornady Hi-Vel sabot.  Three shot groups with each load were fired at 100 meters (109yds).  The following is a summary of the shooting with the details below.  As you can see,  the first session at the range was under whelming in terms of accuracy.  Overall group sizes are much larger as the point of impact center varied also.  Basically what I'm talking about here is "patterns" instead of  "groups".  See detail and more discussion below.      

There were no called flyers with this test. 

mlhunter.note:  After group 4 it became clear the rifle wasn't doing what I wanted it to so I began trying different loads. To see if it would make a difference,  I cleaned the barrel after group 6 not realizing I had shot a nice group 7.  However, the cleaning did not improve subsequent accuracy so I believe that group was a fluke.  The Hornady sabots were quite long for the bullet but I collected quite a few of them and they looked exactly like I would expect them to.   Below are some additional observations from the shooting session:

• Its nice to see the effect of the shot instead of having to wait until the cloud of smoke subsides.
• After 20 or so shots I could tell that loading required a bit more effort than the first few loads, However it was not that bad.
• The owner's manual recommends cleaning the barrel after 50-60 shots but it doesn't look like it needs it.  I can see no  powder or plastic fouling.  However, I'll clean it before the next shooting session.
• The rifle was pleasant to shoot although there was a noticeable difference between the 41 grain load and the 43 and 44 grain loads. Recoil seems less than a maximum magnum Pyrodex pellet load.
• The safety is still  stiff . . . this would be difficult to work with heavy gloves on.
• Trigger is ok, a bit harder pull than I like but its manageable.

Shooting Test #2

April 21, 2002.  A calm day when I can get out to the range for a couple of hours.  The rifle had been cleaned according the owner's manual.  I have found Barnes MZ bullets to be the most  accurate bullet in almost all in-line muzzleloaders IF it can be seated without excessive pressure.  The longer for Weight copper bullets should be just what this faster twist rifle needs. I used these bullets and again used Accurate Arms XMP 5744 powder.  

This year Barnes switched to the slightly softer Hornady High Velocity  sabots for their 50 caliber 300 MZ bullets.  However, the bullets I used for this test were the older style and from the same lot that shot so well in my Austin & Halleck 420.  It became apparent very quickly that these were going to be a bear to seat in this rifle.  I  shortened the test to 3 shots with each load just to see if the longer bullets have potential.  By the time the shooting was over I had broken two short starters and a range rod just trying to get the bullets seated.  These are NOT the bullets for this rifle unless you have a machine shop to make tougher bullet seaters and are a brute of a person. 

Three shot group size didn't improve that much over the Hornady bullets. However,  horizontal dispersion did not vary with the powder charge changes, only vertical dispersion varied as would be expected. So the bottom line is, even though the group  sizes didn't vary that much from the Hornady the overall group was nearly half the size.  That indicates this rifle likes the bullet the best so far and it would be my choice so far However I would make sure the bullets have the new, easier loading sabots.  There were no called flyers. 

Additional observations:

• I know of no scientific explanation for this and I haven't specifically looked for it but with several different rifles now I have noticed that copper bullets seem to recoil less than lead bullets.
• There's no visible reason why  this rifle shouldn't shoot better.  It may need to be "broken in" before it will  shoot to its full potential.  I'll try a few more  bullet combinations before I resort to lapping the bore to hasten break-in.  

Shooting Test #3

April 28, 2002.  A cool day with a 10mph nw wind that is pretty well blocked at the range that I shoot at.  The rifle had not been cleaned as the previous shooting session didn't amount to enough rounds to require it.  This time I thought I'd try some 250 grain bullets with XMP 5744 powder just to see what would happen. .  

Three shot group size didn'tt improve that much over the Hornady bullets.  Also, there was significant horizontal and vertical dispersion with the groups.  There was nothing to get excited about here.  I did use a new Wichita Arms rifle rest and it is rock solid making it easier to hold those nice sight pictures!        

Additional observations:

• I'm still having trouble getting the 209 primers inserted without dropping them.  It would be impossible to do with gloves on.
• Bolt is beginning to close easier indicating its "wearing in".  There's no visible reason why  this rifle shouldn't shoot better.  It may need to be "broken in" before it will  shoot to its full potential.  I decided to  try a few more  bullet combinations before I resorted to lapping the bore to hasten break-in.  

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Shooting the Rifle Conclusions (To Date)

So far the most consistent shooting bullet has been the Barnes 300 MZ bullets.  Truth of the matter is . . . every round I've shot at 100 meters (109yds) would have taken a deer.  However, I'm not happy with 3" as a best with most groups running more like 5".   The Barnes being the most accurate does not surprise me but I would like to get better accuracy from this rifle.  Given what I'm seeing, I believe I'm going to have to begin some add'l "tricks" to get better accuracy.

Given the roughness encountered when initially checking the bore, the barrel needs work.  More shooting may eventually break in the barrel but its hard telling how long that might take . . . if it ever does.   I'm going to speed up that process by lapping the bore. 

The recessed muzzle will make traditional bore lapping difficult if not impossible.  Instead, I'm going to fire lap the bore using patched round balls.  The patched ball will cut while its being seated as well as when its shot out the bore with the light powder load.  This should also really "slick up" the bore and, in combination with the newer Barnes 300 MZ sabots, the bullets should seat much easier.    

05/11/02 -- As I expected, fire lapping really "slicked up" the bore.  I shot the aforementioned abrasive coated patched round balls out with 50 grains of Clean Shot.  I started with 5 rounds of 220 grit followed by a cleaning and an over size greased round ball driven through the bore to check smoothness.  Not satisfied with that I shot another 5 rounds of 220 grit followed by a cleaning and another over size greased round ball driven through the bore.  This time I was satisfied with the way everything felt.  The over sized round ball seemed to push all the way through with pretty much the same pressure and I could feel no roughness at all with a cleaning patch.  Close inspection of the bore when I got it back to the shop indicated that the tooling marks on the bullet's patch or sabot bore riding surface had nearly disappeared.   I plan to follow this session with 10 rounds of 320 grit to smooth things up a bit more and then shoot it again for accuracy.  This is a time consuming process so I won't use any finer grit than 320 unless I find that I have to.  Unfortunately, it may be June before I get the time to complete this process. 

06/08/02 -- As noted above the fire lapping was finished off with 10 rounds of 320 grit.  I also shot 10 rounds of 600 grit through it.  The barrel was cleaned out after each five rounds. The bore was very slick and very easy to load.  There was a "really slick" spot about where the bullet would have started out down the barrel.  This is consistent with what I've read about fire lapping centerfire and that is that there is more metal removed at the beginning of the round than at the muzzle.  This "choking" affect is a known accuracy aid so there is no harm done by that as long as its not too excessive.  Because of the long column of powder that spot is considerably above where smokeless powder would place the bullet and considerably below where black powder would place the bullet.  I tried a few Barnes 300 MZ 300 bullets in it and they would load fairly easily now but every other shot was key holing!  Inspection of the sabots indicated that the sabot was not holding up,  they looked almost shredded.  So much for that theory!  Preliminary firing with 250 grain Hornady HP/XTP looked very promising as I was getting nice two shot groups with the third shot going a bit high.   I didn't want to shoot for record until I had a chance to completely clean the rifle and change to a new vent liner.  However, I began to notice that the rifle was grouping better.

06/15/02 -- Time for the rubber to meet the road.  As noted above there was no use trying the Barnes as  the sabots weren't up to the pressure.  As I began shooting groups at 100 Meters (109yds) I noticed the same characteristic as last time, two shots would group right together and the third would go high.  However, the group with 41 grains of XMP5744 three shot group at 1 5/16", definitely an improvement and definitely within my 2" criteria.  The first two shots went into 1/2"! 42 grains of same went into 2 3/16" with the first two went into 7/8", still under MOA.  43 grains went into 3" with the first two went into 1 9/16".  One of the 44 grain shots went off the paper , the first two shots were 2 1/2".  Every time the first two would be the closest and the third would be high.  Going back to my original pre-fire lapping targets I could see some of the same phenomena there.  Throwing out the worst bullet of three definitely bettered the group size.  However, even doing that fire lapping cut the group size in half in most cases. I also tried some 300 HP/XTP and I could only get one or at the most two shots to stay on the paper        

Preliminary Conclusion -- OK . . .  what have I got.  I've got a rifle that will shoot two shots went into MOA or less with  the third shot pretty close in if I stay at 41 - 42 grains of XMP5744.  That ain't bad!  It was definitely worth the effort to fire lap the barrel.  If I had to do it again though I would skip the 220 grit and use a lighter powder charge to get a more even lapping from breech to muzzle.  As a side note the trigger has smoothed out a bit and the 209 primers almost fall out where I was having to pry them out sometimes.  I'm pretty well convinced that this rifle is operating at the edge of what plastic sabot technology can do.  between the higher pressures (and associated heat) of smokeless powder, a warm 80 degree day, and the barrel heating up after each shot I believe the plastic softened up enough to cause each third shot to go high.  After the barrel was allowed to cool down all the way the next two shots would group with the third one going awry high each time.  The 300 grain loads increased pressure even more and that's why I could only count on one shot staying on the paper.  Near 80 degree weather can and does happen during deer season in Missouri so I don't think the test conditions are unreasonable.

07/13/02 More Shooting -- I wanted to validate my theory by trying more bullets in the 250 grain range to see if they act the same.  The Hornady is a tough bullet but it wouldn't be my first choice for a big game bullet at greater than 454 Casull velocities.   The following outlines the bullets I tested.

More Conclusion -- I continue to believe the rifle is inherently accurate and that this concept pushes the envelope with existing sabots and will likely shoot much better in cooler weather when I can keep the barrel and the sabots cooler.  I'm looking for a way to cool the barrel between shots but have not stumbled on anything affordable yet.  If time permits, I may test rifle with Pyrodex as the sabots may not fail as quickly.  

11/30/02 More Shooting -- A friend purchased an identical model to the one I have.  We only had one day  to get him ready to go so after I got him oriented to the rifle at my shop off to the range we went.  He hunts heavy  timber with open sights so for a load we used the Hornady 300 HP/XTP with two 50 grain Pyrodex Pellets and Federal 209 primers.  I didn't do the shooting but he was grouping them right in there at 50 meters (54yds) until about the 10th or 12th shot.  I noticed he was starting to flinch so it was time to quit.  However, the rifle was sighted in very nicely at 50yds by that time.  We came back and thoroughly cleaned it and he's ready to hunt with it.  mlhunter.note:  Savage is now mounting fiber optic sights on their rifles.  They appear to be all metal and a stout design.  The only thing I don't like is there are no reference marks for adjustments.   I personally don't care for fiber optic sights on a rifle but this shooter really liked them and for the type of close hunting he does they may be a good choice.

Other Articles on the Savage 10 ML II

• http://www.gunblast.com/SavageML10.htm
• http://ridgerunner20.tripod.com/thesavagearchivepages/index.html

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